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Cartwheels across the window?


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#41 SkyPuppet

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:21 AM

Personally I find the cartwheel(bicycle) is easier to fly then the moonwalk.


johnnmitchell, when flying the Moonwalk, do I need to touch the LE tips to the ground like when I'm trying for a cartwheel?

If not, I'm already flying the moonwalk, although I can only get through about 2 rotations before I reach the window edge.

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#42 RevWizard

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:17 AM

johnnmitchell, when flying the Moonwalk, do I need to touch the LE tips to the ground like when I'm trying for a cartwheel?

If not, I'm already flying the moonwalk, although I can only get through about 2 rotations before I reach the window edge.

The moonwalk is normally flown above the ground, however tapping each tip as you go around adds some spice to it.
The moonwalk is where you roll the opposite direction of how a wheel rolls as you move horizontally:
- move from left to right you roll anti-clockwise
- move from right to left you roll clockwise
The bicycle(cartwheel(Hadzicki Shuffle)) is the opposite in that:
- when you move from left to right you roll clockwise
- when you move from right to left you roll anti-clockwise

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#43 SkyPuppet

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:01 AM

Gotcha! Thanks for the definitions :)

Got the cartwheel working again today. I had to touch the LE tips to the ground to help with the rotations, but I think that is helping my overall progress.It was looking somewhat better done in mid-air than yesterday, but still needs lots of help.

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#44 Felix Mottram

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:04 AM

Felix
Some of us may not have those twenty years. Posted Image

When Lynn and I went flying yesterday I tried to break down exactly what I was doing to do the cartwheel. It's such a fluid motion that I find it hard to break down. I think Watty's way is most likely the best. Lynn had never done the cartwheel, but I had her doing is in just a few minutes. Not by any means perfect, but she was getting it.

Bart

You might want to work on your reverse flight before you get to crazy into the cartwheel, as one side of the kite is flying in reverse the whole time.


Hi Jim,

I'm not sure that I have made full use of my 20 years which is part of 'my problem'.

Being able 'possibly' to move the kite to any precise place in the sky was what caught my imagination 20 years ago.

One of the team moves which I think is very interesting now is to 'roll the ball' across the window...

Felix

#45 RevWizard

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:13 PM

snip...

One of the team moves which I think is very interesting now is to 'roll the ball' across the window...

Felix

Wicked!

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#46 Jim Foster

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:27 PM

Personally I find the cartwheel(bicycle) is easier to fly then the moonwalk.


True, however the moonwalk looks so cool. Always brings comments from folks watching.

I don't think I want to touch the tips while doing the moonwalk as it would cause the kite to stop for the tip touch, taking away from the fluid motion that looks so nice.
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#47 HedgeWarden

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:07 PM

I like to work on all of it all at once! Keeps it interesting. I can do the stationary ones fine, just need to introduce the horizontal. Who knows, getting this sorted out may help the reverse.

Bart


Bart,

Just a personal observation from a hack who is certainly not a adept as you (having flown next to you during the mega-fly) - however I have my reverse flight under pretty good control under good conditions....

As I try to fly the cartwheel, I am glad I have reverse flight under somewhat decent control. Otherwise I know I would not be able to get as far as I have - not total success yet, but at least the reverse flight does not trip me up before I get to my weak area. My weak area is transitioning from reverse flight to upright flight with side slide. There, my problem is removing the reverse (brake) smoothly to achieve forward and sideways thrust (upright side-slide position).

Here's a cool idea: 9x9 mega-fly with everyone cartwheeling together. :w00t::kid_drool::ani_yahoo:
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#48 lylenc

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:09 PM

Is there a name for a cartwheel that goes in a circular movement in the window instead of horizontal movement? Not knowing the correct name, I refer to it as the Polo Thing, since his was the first video I saw it done. My son refers to it as the Ferris Wheel. I'm sure there must be one or more "real" names for it. Whatever they are called, mine vary from squares to ovals, with a few near-circles now and then.
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#49 bartman

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:25 PM

Bart,

Just a personal observation from a hack who is certainly not a adept as you (having flown next to you during the mega-fly) - however I have my reverse flight under pretty good control under good conditions....

As I try to fly the cartwheel, I am glad I have reverse flight under somewhat decent control. Otherwise I know I would not be able to get as far as I have - not total success yet, but at least the reverse flight does not trip me up before I get to my weak area. My weak area is transitioning from reverse flight to upright flight with side slide. There, my problem is removing the reverse (brake) smoothly to achieve forward and sideways thrust (upright side-slide position).

Here's a cool idea: 9x9 mega-fly with everyone cartwheeling together. Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


I'm adept? Thanks. I consider myself a hack!

I have issues with reverse flight, but it's not a total write-off. I can't do it without thought which I'd like to but I can do it. Mainly it is not always perfectly level or consistant speed and sometimes I over control and flip a tip out but it isn't stopping me from moving on. I practice reverse flight every time I go out and in different orientations. This year at WSIKF I am going to observe under the smoother winds and then pick more brains to see if I can ge the rest of the kinks out.

Transitions are coming along good for me. Not all over the sky when I do them now so one more baby step.

I might have to sit out your 9 x 9 grid cartwheel!

Bart

#50 Bazzer

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:57 PM

I'm adept? Thanks. I consider myself a hack!

I have issues with reverse flight, but it's not a total write-off. I can't do it without thought which I'd like to but I can do it. Mainly it is not always perfectly level or consistant speed and sometimes I over control and flip a tip out but it isn't stopping me from moving on. I practice reverse flight every time I go out and in different orientations. This year at WSIKF I am going to observe under the smoother winds and then pick more brains to see if I can ge the rest of the kinks out.

Transitions are coming along good for me. Not all over the sky when I do them now so one more baby step.

I might have to sit out your 9 x 9 grid cartwheel!

Bart

Your no hack Bart!
A word of advice to anyone trying reverse flight.
A vented kite reverses easier. Bart is lucky enough to own a Xtra vent. It is the easiest kite to reverse fly.
If you can hold a side ways hover on two middle fingers(ie not have the kite running forward) Your brake setting is correct.
that is a good general rule for set up each time you fly.
To much forward on the kite will mean larger wrist rotations which lead to bigger mistakes and over corrections.
When turning corners on a horizontal ladder in reverse remember you are switching from one side ways hover to the other whilst travelling. So your hands must change from one hover to the other during the corner.
Travelling rotations are clock work while traveling. Focus on the middle of the kite and keep tension on all lines. AGAIN if you are running to much forward it is more difficult.

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#51 bartman

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

Well thank you again.

I am trying to think if I've reversed the Xtra yet and really paid attention. I know the bicycle spins I did with it were very good with little or no wandering.

I've been using as much brake as I can and still move forward. I've found that all that brake has really helped me with over control issues because even applying just a little bit more brake would be too much so I've been training myself to use the smallest of movements as a result.

Need to try the two finger rule next time I'm out and see where it wants to go.

Watching the middle of the kite and not the "wings" really is the way to go especially when learning it. It is amazing how that simple focus can make a world of difference almost instantely.

Bart

#52 Jim Foster

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:12 PM

I was about to post about using a vented kite, but Bazzer beat me to it.

Vented Revs fly so very well in reverse, sideways also.
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#53 lylenc

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 04:42 PM

Cartwheels were done on the 3-wrap Barresi 1.5, vented 1.5 with SLE, 1.5 SLE, and Rev 2 today for comparison of performance. Wind was mostly one direction ranging 10 to 20 mph, with average about 17 and a few gusts to 26. Previously I had compared the Rev 2 and vented Rev 2 in 30 mph wind. I usually use 85' lines, but used 120' lines today. For my flying preference at least, it was easiest to do cartwheels in the following order of kites:

Vented Rev 2, Rev 2, Vented 1.5, 1.5 SLE, and Barresi 1.5. Part of my problem with the B 1.5 may be that it is slower than I'm used to flying. It took me a half hour last week to slow down the inputs and stop making bow ties on the B 1.5, after flying mostly vented Rev 2 in 30+ mph for a week prior to that. Even after trying to make a fair comparison, it seemed like the stiffer leading edge on the 1.5 size kite made cartwheels easier to control. Full disclosure, I'd pick a Rev 2 size over the 1.5 size in almost any situation anyway.

If you are having troubles learning cartwheels with 3-wrap leading edge on a 1.5, try a SLE. It might make a difference for you (a Rev 2 might be easier too). The SLE frame for the 1.5 size seemed easier for me in the 10 - 20 mph wind range. I have no idea if I'd have the same prefences in 5 - 10 mph wind. The stiffer leading edge also made reverse flight seem easier, as additonal comment to the prior post.

I didn't realize I was going to do a comparison when flying the B 1.5, so I didn't try using both the 2-wrap and 3-wrap together to see how that compares to the SLE. Someone else may have a comment on that comparison. The wind was mostly at the lower end before I switched from the B 1.5 to the vented 1.5.

In general, as with any kite adjustments, there are trade-offs for changes to frame. With the mega-fly craze of the last several years, it seems the positive characteristics of the SLE have been forgotten or ignored. Or, it could be me being an old fart and thinking the old way is better. I had mostly left the 1.5 SLE in the bag for the last couple of years and used the other Revs. Glad I pulled it out today. It is a sweet kite and probably gets overlooked by many others, too.
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#54 SkyPuppet

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 11:29 AM

<snip>
If you can hold a side ways hover on two middle fingers(ie not have the kite running forward) Your brake setting is correct.
that is a good general rule for set up each time you fly.
To much forward on the kite will mean larger wrist rotations which lead to bigger mistakes and over corrections. <snip>


Ah, Bazzer you just reminded me - I changed my brake setting a week ago. I rarely blame the gear for tricking problems - I'm usually blaming technique, but in this case my brake setting was lacking!

I previously had so much brake dialed in on my leaders that I was having a bear of a time holding an upright hover. So a week ago, I dialed it back a couple notches until I could come up with a solution.
Well, after looking through some videos yesterday, this vid provided me with the solution: Street Kiting in Portland (check 4:10 to 4:17)
When I look at this section of the vid, I can see that Watty's is pulling his arms in for acceleration, so that he can see the tops of his hands. This allows for a great deal of acceleration, with just the arms, while also giving the option of rocking the wrists back as well, for even more acceleration.
I was already positioning my hands like this when I launch, it didn't occur to me that I could use this same hand positioning to maintain a good upright hover, till I saw the vid!

Ok, back to the cartwheel -
Now that I had a good way to maintain a good upright hover with lots of brake dialed in, I um, dialed back in lots of brake (Ahhhhh.... I missed this setting :blue-love: last knot on the stock B handles). I got through 3 rotations of the cartwheel right away! Removing some (lots) of the acceleration helps slow the forward motion down (of course) and helps make the transitions less twitchy. Because the transitions are less twitchy, I can keep more tension on all the lines at all times through the rotations and transitions!
Also, I believe I had the timing of the transition wrong. If traveling left to right, with a clockwise spin, I previously stated I was having success starting the transition with the LE somewhere between the " \ " and " | " position. Today, I was noticing the transition worked better when I started it somewhere between the
" | " and " / " position.

As always, I'll report back tomorrow if I can't make it work again.
Thanks for jogging my brain Bazzer, and thanks for the vid Watty :)

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#55 Felix Mottram

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:12 PM

Ah, Bazzer you just reminded me - I changed my brake setting a week ago.

<snip>


The best place for all this is where the kite is neutral. Not going forwards, backwards, left or right. In order to make it travel the flier has to effect some positive input rather than attempting to reverse any tendency.

So, here we are with the kite in the middle of the wind window 'in neutral'. It will not go forwards, backwards, left or right without positive input from the flier. In a strong breeze relaxed shoulders and just hanging on the handles will be just right. The kite will not fly forwards...

At this point the slightest input from the flier will have sufficient affect on the sail and will result in 'controlled' moves.

In light winds the same process applies but the flier will have to create the effective sail loading.

Felix

#56 katrina

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:30 PM

Decided to learn cartwheels next time I was out, which was last weekend. Here is what worked really well for me, may work for others: Don't look at the kite at all. Look 2 or 3 kite lengths ahead or behind it. Why? Because your hands probably already know what to do, and if you aren't looking at each move you make and overthinking it, your hands will just do the right thing. Remember in Star Wars when Luke is failing to swat at the little floating bot with his saber, and obi wan makes him do it blind folded instead? And he does much better. Use the force. :blue-cool:

Just pretend all my statements are prefaced with IIRC, AFAIK, IMHO, and end with "Just my $.02," okay?
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#57 Felix Mottram

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:16 PM

Decided to learn cartwheels next time I was out, which was last weekend. Here is what worked really well for me, may work for others: Don't look at the kite at all. Look 2 or 3 kite lengths ahead or behind it. Why? Because your hands probably already know what to do, and if you aren't looking at each move you make and overthinking it, your hands will just do the right thing. <snip>


Having confidence in what your hands 'do know' is important.

I had thought about posting about looking at one place and flying at another earlier. Peripheral vision is a bit of a challenge to those of us who have not been involved in team calling.

I think that we should all take some time to be able to spread/split our attention.

<grins>

Felix

#58 bartman

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:48 PM

I am so close to getting this. Sometimes it comes almost perfect. The next time won't work. I still have not figured out what I am doing when it work vs. not works. Looking behind the kite worked only once for me!

By the end of WSIKF I am determined to have this roughed out!

Bart

#59 RevWizard

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:54 PM

I am so close to getting this. Sometimes it comes almost perfect. The next time won't work. I still have not figured out what I am doing when it work vs. not works. Looking behind the kite worked only once for me!

By the end of WSIKF I am determined to have this roughed out!

Bart

Don't think too hard about it. Just let your hand move naturally.
Now if you want to think about, as you do it, you should try doing it in slow-motion.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#60 Felix Mottram

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 01:16 PM

Don't think too hard about it. Just let your hand move naturally.
Now if you want to think about, as you do it, you should try doing it in slow-motion.


No No No, You should be saying Very Slow Motion. You should be stopping and holding 360 points per rotation...

Nothing Less is good enough. Wobbles are simply not allowed.

Do it or fail...

Of course there are some people out there who have modified their kites/bridles etc. so that they claim that they can do all this stuff without fail every time and in all wind conditions...

They will, of course, be happy to show you how to achieve their exemplary capabilities at a festival near you any time soon now...

NOT...

Back in the real world we stick to our Piano scales and enjoy the drill...

Felix




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