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Cartwheels across the window?


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#21 stroke survivor

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:16 AM

just started to do them also!! Something I'll be asking about at the clinic, next weekend! Getting them to travel is my hard part, can get them in place pretty good! Always something new to learn!!! Posted Image

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#22 SkyPuppet

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:11 AM

HedgeWarden is experiencing my problem EXACTLY. Managed to describe it much better and in a much less convoluted way, too ;)

Out to fly in 20 mins. After I do my Sunday kite chores (line rotation + equalization), I'm practicing cartwheels.

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#23 bartman

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:28 AM

I can do the stationary bicycle quite well now. I actually picke this up fairly quick after I learned how to do a nice 180. Just dawned on me one day that if I could do a 180 then just to it again I'd have a stationary rotation. Repeat as required.

I'm also remembering that as I learned these rotations at first I would climb as I did them. So if I can do the traveling bicycle vertically I should be able to do it horizontally just haven't got it yet.

Bart

#24 SkyPuppet

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:00 PM

Made a little progress today! Thanks for the advice everyone!! :) All following descriptions are starting from the left edge of the window and traveling right, with the Rev spinning clockwise, here's what I did:

First, its easier to start while traveling than from stationary. So, almost immediately after I started slowly flying right, with the LE (leading edge) in " | " position, I took awindofchange's advice, and pulled my left hand back with left thumb back, while pushing my right hand forward with right thumb forward. This starts the Rev traveling slowly right and spinning.

I found that after this motion begins, I was applying the next "pump" way too soon. Because of practicing stationary bicycles, I was used to pumping when the LE was somewhere between the " / " and " --- " positions.

The next pump during a cartwheel works somewhere between the LE in " \ " and the " | " position. When the Rev got to the " \ " position, I pushed my left hand forward with left thumb back, while I pulled my right hand back with right thumb forward. This kept the Rev traveling right, and spinning! HOORAY!!

Now I see where my hands were getting confused. I was trying to "steer" my hands around each other in an effort to maintain direct control, instead of pumping then letting inertia carry it around for me. I was trying to be too involved with the control.

HedgeWarden, I hope this helps, as I was having the same problem you described. If you can do a stationary bicycle, the motion here is the same, the timing of the pumps takes some getting used to, and thumb positioning needs to be more deliberate. I can do the cartwheel with my handles in the "| |" position, or in the same position that it takes me to do a stationary bicycle. There isn't a big handle postion transition to worry about, just wait for the LE to come around, and make sure you don't do anything with your hands to prevent the LE from coming around, so don't apply any tension to your lines during this motion. Then its just a matter of timing!

I'm sure I'm leaving something out in the description above. I'll report back after some more practice.
I hope this helps someone else get started, along with all the other great advice presented in this topic ;) I'm so excited to get out tomorrow and practice some more! I can just about get through 2 rotations cleanly before my hands go wonky. I can't wait to cartwheel the whole window!

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#25 RevWizard

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 01:05 PM

The advise I always give is to do it real slowly at first, trying to understand the hand movements you need to make.

Once you have this down pat, then try doing the same but have the rolls moving the opposite direction but still moving the same direction horizontally.
This latter one I think was originally called the "Hadzicki Shuffle" or was it the "moonwalk".

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#26 Jim Foster

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 01:52 PM

The way I learned to do this is to fly forwards across the wind window, then about half way through, I spin 180 degrees and continue flying, but now in reverse. I kept doing this and every once and a while adding another spin. Eventually you will get it to where you will cartwheel all across the window.


I think Watty has it.

Another way is to turn 1/4 turn at a time as you slide across the window, making only one complete turn. Once you have that going, add 1/4 turn each pass. All done very slowly.

There is no one, sure, easy way. I think the most important thing is to not try to do too much all at once. Break it into small bites, you know, the way you eat an Elephant.
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#27 bartman

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:41 PM

Could I get some dipping sauce with my elephant please?

Bart

#28 SkyPuppet

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:53 PM

I had to edit a bit of my last post. I incorrectly described the thumb position for the second pump. Its been corrected, although the post doesn't show I made the edit.

Sorry :blushing:

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#29 SkyPuppet

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:20 AM

The results I seemed to obtain yesterday were not completely repeatable today :(

More practice, dicing my elephant into smaller bites once again.....:)

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#30 Felix Mottram

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:28 AM

I think Watty has it.

Another way is to turn 1/4 turn at a time as you slide across the window, making only one complete turn. Once you have that going, add 1/4 turn each pass. All done very slowly.

There is no one, sure, easy way. I think the most important thing is to not try to do too much all at once. Break it into small bites, you know, the way you eat an Elephant.


Hi Jim,

"Very Slowly" is 'it' as far as I am concerned.

The component parts or transitions need to be assembled 'slowly'.

There is no rush of course as it may take some of us 20 years or more to learn. I'm still learning and enjoying every minute of it. Others may claim an instant fix but I like "slowly".

Felix

#31 bartman

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 01:27 PM

I tried Watty's method last night. Reverse flight is such a major pain for me that it looked awful, but I can see where it gets the mindset going on the method.

Again I had a couple that looked not bad but I had no idea what I did different to create it. I feel by the end of summer I'll have the basics on it.

What was better was getting in the groove with the iPod and doing a fast dive and quick 180 at the end to set the bottom tips on the ground and hearing, overtop of the music, "WOW!"

It startled me and I turned around to see two kids standing there watching. Don't know how long they were watching, but I'm glad I impressed them. Up until then I wasn't doing anything too special.

Bart

#32 Jim Foster

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:37 PM

Hi Jim,

"Very Slowly" is 'it' as far as I am concerned.

The component parts or transitions need to be assembled 'slowly'.

There is no rush of course as it may take some of us 20 years or more to learn. I'm still learning and enjoying every minute of it. Others may claim an instant fix but I like "slowly".

Felix


Felix

Some of us may not have those twenty years. :confused!:

When Lynn and I went flying yesterday I tried to break down exactly what I was doing to do the cartwheel. It's such a fluid motion that I find it hard to break down. I think Watty's way is most likely the best. Lynn had never done the cartwheel, but I had her doing is in just a few minutes. Not by any means perfect, but she was getting it.

Bart

You might want to work on your reverse flight before you get to crazy into the cartwheel, as one side of the kite is flying in reverse the whole time.
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#33 bartman

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:45 PM

I like to work on all of it all at once! Keeps it interesting. I can do the stationary ones fine, just need to introduce the horizontal. Who knows, getting this sorted out may help the reverse.

Bart

#34 ahofer

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:11 PM

I'm only so-so at it, but one thing I've learned is that you often need to moderate line tension along the way. At the extreme edges it can feel like a slack-line trick. A little flexibility throughout helps avoid the unintended sail flips and over-braking. But that's coming from someone who has to remind himself not to put the Mike Tyson "fists of steel" on his handles.
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#35 Jim Foster

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:51 PM

Just got back from flying. We have a soccer field near which is moat always empty and a nice Delta breeze.

Lynn is catching on the the cartwheel fast. We were able to do them together a couple of times in both directions quite nicely. We only do one slowly, near the center of the window. After we get that, we'll go for two together.

Looks pretty cool with a pair. Neat move.
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#36 RevWizard

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:12 PM

Just got back from flying. We have a soccer field near which is moat always empty and a nice Delta breeze.

Lynn is catching on the the cartwheel fast. We were able to do them together a couple of times in both directions quite nicely. We only do one slowly, near the center of the window. After we get that, we'll go for two together.

Looks pretty cool with a pair. Neat move.

The pairs bicycle(cartwheel) was at one time one of the International Sport Kite Compulsory figures.
This is what it looked like on the drawing:
MP02-Tandem.png
I flew this with my pairs partner Jeanette Braun de Bes about 10 years back at several competitions.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#37 Jim Foster

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:16 PM

Question

Is the cartwheel a tumble like a wheel rolling in the direction the kite is moving, or rolling in the opposite direction the kite is moving?

In the diagram John posted, the kite is rolling in the direction it is moving. If this is a "cartwheel", what is the other move called where the kite is rotating in the opposite direction of flight?
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#38 RevWizard

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:12 PM

Question

Is the cartwheel a tumble like a wheel rolling in the direction the kite is moving, or rolling in the opposite direction the kite is moving?

In the diagram John posted, the kite is rolling in the direction it is moving. If this is a "cartwheel", what is the other move called where the kite is rotating in the opposite direction of flight?

Jim,
The cartwheel is the bicycle and it is also called the "Hadzicki Shuffle". The roll is like a bicycle wheel in the direction of the bicycle moves.
Take a look at this old rec.kites thread:
http://kites.tug.com...rev.nomeclature
ISK called this the Bicycle for individuals and Tandem for pairs.
Now I have verified that the rotation in the opposite direction was originally called the Moonwalk. e.g. moving left to right rotate anti-clockwise
Take a look at this old rec.kites thread:
http://www.kites.tug...ure.the.bicycle

Wait, There is more!
There is another similar move. It is called the Pivots. It is a figure today for both individuals and pairs.
I first saw this flown by my friend Ronnie Schrabmeir of Lenz, Austria when we flying at he Fano Kite Meeting in Denmark.
I proposed this to STACK around 1995. It became a figure the following year and a ISK figure around 2000.
You fly up on the left side of the window. Stop and rotate 90. Move right a quarter of the window and rotate 90 in the same direction as previously. This will be repeated until there is a full 360 rotation and then you land. There are several ways to do this as can be seen in the present ISK Pivots and the previous version.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#39 Jim Foster

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:59 AM

Lynn and I have been doing the moonwalk both directions, not the cartwheel. I do the cartwheel both directions, but I don't think Lynn has ever tried it.

Guess I'll have to get her going on that.
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#40 RevWizard

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:10 AM

Lynn and I have been doing the moonwalk both directions, not the cartwheel. I do the cartwheel both directions, but I don't think Lynn has ever tried it.

Guess I'll have to get her going on that.

Personally I find the cartwheel(bicycle) is easier to fly then the moonwalk.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
International Rules Book Committee and STACK International Head Judge - 6/2004-6/2008
World Sport Kite Championship Judge - 2004-2005-2006(Chief Judge)
13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


Web Site - http://www.johnnmitchell.com/index.html Check it out today!





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