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Cartwheels across the window?


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#1 genesant

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 09:37 PM

I saw a video with a Supersonic doing smooth cartwheels across the window. I would like to do that also but am having diffuculty with it. I can do stationary spins OK but am having a hard time with smooth rolling for any distance. I fly by myself so no one near to get tips from. Any advice?

Gene

#2 steveb

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 10:04 PM

Steve de Rooy is a master at the slow motion cross window cartwheel: ever so slow, ever so smooth, just rotating steadily from side to side of the Window.
I'd like to be able to do it too- it's on my list of things to learn.

#3 Sailor99

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 11:10 PM

I've been having a go at that myself lately and have just about got to grips with it, although it is not a smooth as I would like (yet). At first I was trying to do a slow continuous turn while at the same time adding a bit of horizontal movement. But I got pretty much nowhere trying to learn it that way - there was too much going on in my head, and the overload button kept tripping. Then I remembered the old adage about big tasks - How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. So I broke the movement down into 4 bites. Say you start off to the left of the window with leading edge up. Pull a little with your right hand to start the horizontal movement and add left thumb back to turn to leading edge right. Finish off with a left pull to stop the kite decending. Then stop and regroup your thoughts. Then add a little bit of thumbs back with both hands, but a bit more with the left. You will move right again and turn, but don't forget to bring your hands level! Stop at inverted. Then pull with your left hand and add a little bit of brake with your right. You will move right again but also turn to leading edge left. Stop again remembering to pull with the right to keep the kite from descending. Then finally add breaks to both but a little more to the right hand and you will move right and to leading edge up. By now you are probably on the right side of the window, so reverse the procedure and go back the other way. Essentially it is clockwork with a horizontal movement added and with longer stops to let your brain catch up. Once this is off to pat try cutting down on the stops until they finally disappear. Then you've got it!

From there it is fine tuning - making the turns smooth and cutting down on the speed of horizontal movement so that you can fit in more than one turn as you cross the window.
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#4 tonycarl

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 12:21 AM

On Stationary spins the kite pivots a little below the center of the leading edge. On cartwheels the pivot point is at or near the end of the leading edge. Practice keeping one end of the rev in one spot while you rotate the other end up or down. Start upright, rotate one end up and over until inverted, stop then repeat from a inverted position. Do this 1,000 times. Also try vertical cartwheels up and down the window. Have fun!

#5 Watty

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:35 AM

The way I learned to do this is to fly forwards across the wind window, then about half way through, I spin 180 degrees and continue flying, but now in reverse. I kept doing this and every once and a while adding another spin. Eventually you will get it to where you will cartwheel all across the window.

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#6 RevWizard

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 08:44 AM

The cartwheel was originally called the "Hadzicki Shuffle". For competition kiting, it was named the "Bicycle". There is also a reverse version of it where the spin is in the opposite direction from the bicycle where the horizontal movement remains the same. This was named by someone a long time ago as the "Moonwalker". This is not an easy movement at all.
I have never perfected the right to left horizontal motion of the bicycle, however the left to right horizontal motion, I am quite good at. One of the judges(Simon Dann) at one competition once told me I fly right handed. I still do.
Another variation of the bicycle is to tap, not beat, the ground with each tip as you roll a long.

I found that doing it very slowly, it is the easiest way for me to do it. Don't think to hard about it, just let your hands do it.
As Jeremy(Sailor) says, work on the parts of the movement you are having problems with. Refine these at then put everything together.
Also adjust the lines on your pigtails to give you a constant middle point on the lines. Meaning as you hold the handles in your normal position, the rev does not pull forward nor backwards. Maybe a touch of brake might help as the backward flow in the direction of the horizontal movement is generally the weak point.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

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#7 Kitelife

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:30 AM

One of the things I practice regularly is rotating flight in any direction, rotating in either direction... A very useful skill, I'm 100% comfortable with it.

For me, it's a mater of maintaining the hover (pivot point), while favoring (switching between) whichever edge of the kite is leading where I want to go.

Best practiced quite slow, and sped up as you become more familiar with the movements, same with reverse flight.

It's like a multi-dimensional bicycle, imho. ;)

John hits it right on the head here...

Also adjust the lines on your pigtails to give you a constant middle point on the lines. Meaning as you hold the handles in your normal position, the rev does not pull forward nor backwards. Maybe a touch of brake might help as the backward flow in the direction of the horizontal movement is generally the weak point.


John Barresi

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#8 awindofchange

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 12:40 PM

One thing that really started helping me with the bicycle turn (aka cartwheel) was to fly the bottom wing tips instead of turning the top of the kite. By pulling the bottom wing tip up it helps maintain horizontal hover easier than turning the leading edge down. So flying left to right slowly, instead of initiating your turn with the high side of the kite, pull the bottom of the kite up to horizontal (left hand brake line) while letting the right hand go a little slack. Once the kite floats around into the reverse position (180 turn) change your hand positions to pull the leading edge of your right hand up to the horizontal position and let your left hand go slightly slack. It took me a long time to figure it out but once it clicked I started to get a half decent bicycle turn. Just keep working on it and it will come.

Hope this helps.

#9 genesant

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 08:45 PM

Thanks for all the tips. I'm going to print them and take them with me on my next fly day.

I feel like a kid with homework when I try to work on a new skillset. I work on it for awhile and after maybe 15 minutes I can't stand it and start flying to the music for fun. Any of you have similiar discipline problems?

#10 RevWizard

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for all the tips. I'm going to print them and take them with me on my next fly day.

I feel like a kid with homework when I try to work on a new skillset. I work on it for awhile and after maybe 15 minutes I can't stand it and start flying to the music for fun. Any of you have similiar discipline problems?

I really wish I had all this help when I was learning to fly a REV!
All I had was the memories of the video from REV because it was in NTSC format and not PAL.
I had no one to teach me except when I visited in England and ran across Romney who invited to come out to Blackeheath to fly with the Decorators. From Felix I picked up a lot of tips. Then it was train, train, train and more training.

Long John (formerly Mr. R)

STACK International Executive Committee - 6/1996-6/2008
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13x 1st - 12x 2nd - 6x 3rd places in 37 overall Quadline individual competitions


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#11 steveb

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 01:21 PM

One thing that really started helping me with the bicycle turn (aka cartwheel) was to fly the bottom wing tips instead of turning the top of the kite. By pulling the bottom wing tip up it helps maintain horizontal hover easier than turning the leading edge down. So flying left to right slowly, instead of initiating your turn with the high side of the kite, pull the bottom of the kite up to horizontal (left hand brake line) while letting the right hand go a little slack. Once the kite floats around into the reverse position (180 turn) change your hand positions to pull the leading edge of your right hand up to the horizontal position and let your left hand go slightly slack. It took me a long time to figure it out but once it clicked I started to get a half decent bicycle turn. Just keep working on it and it will come.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the pointers. I followed your instructions yesterday afternoon and had some success. I need to do loads of practise to smooth it out and keep the speed and motion consistent, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel finally. B)

Oddly enough, I don't have much trouble doing a rising or falling bicycle turn, but really struggled on the horizontal version.

#12 big bri

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 12:37 AM

Practice as usual is everything,but i seem to just be able to do this move on demand.Ive never been shown how or read how,i just seem to be able to do this well.Ive even had people comment on how well i can do it.Mrs Hoath passed comment at Ainsdale while we chated as i flew doing a series of cartwheels[bike turns].I just seem to have the nack for it.
I always imagine its like pedaling a bike,if you imagine your hands to behave like your feet would on the pedals,i think you could sort it.

Now to crack the TAKE OFF AND LANDING SUSAN :lol: :lol: :lol:

BRIAN...

#13 Kitelife

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:21 AM

I really wish I had all this help when I was learning to fly a REV!
All I had was the memories of the video from REV because it was in NTSC format and not PAL.
I had no one to teach me except when I visited in England and ran across Romney who invited to come out to Blackeheath to fly with the Decorators. From Felix I picked up a lot of tips. Then it was train, train, train and more training.

I hear ya John, I had to figure all this out myself as well... Nothing but trial and error, for 17 years. ;)

John Barresi

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#14 SkyPuppet

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 11:49 AM

Hello everyone,
Bringing up this old topic so I can hopefully improve on this move :blushing: When I look at the vids people have created, its one of my favorite moves to watch.
I have read through this topic quite a few times now, and taken what I have learned to the field, but with limited success.
It should be a multi-dimensional bicycle - I'm pivoting the kite around a point low on the middle panel, while at the same time slowly moving the kite horizontally across the window. As I can bicycle in place with some proficiency, I thought this wouldn't be too difficult to get. It's been a couple weeks now and I can only get through 180 degrees of it.

I took Watty's advice first, flying across the window, turning a 180, then continue flying in reverse without stopping the horizontal movement.
Even though I'm right handed, I started practicing from right to left first. I fly to the right edge, turn the LE facing left, and as I fly across the window, right to left, with my hands positioned for horizontal flight in this direction, I give fairly sharp right brake, while at the same time "steering" my right hand around my left hand so my hands wind up in the position required to maintain reverse horizontal flight. I can get to this point and keep the kite flying in reverse smoothly and with the same speed as I started. However, while flying in reverse, I'm having problems with smoothly completing the next 180 so I'm once again flying forward horizontally.
I just can't wrap my brain around it - I can't steer my right hand around my left hand again, otherwise my arms would be crossed.... I tried to switch from giving it right brake to turn it to applying left brake while at the same time trying to steer my left hand around my right, but that doesn't seem to work, though I admit my timing might be off.
I think this might actually be a reverse cartwheel, as I'm traveling left, but the Rev is spinning right (clockwise).

When I practice a cartwheel from left to right, with the Rev spinning clockwise, I'm having problems right from the get-go, because of the reasons mentioned above. Once I start the motion my hands want to steer around the turn.

I read awindofchange's advice, but I just can't seem to get it. When flying left to right and spinning clockwise, I don't understand how you can initiate the spin with any left hand brake here without changing the horizontal speed. I'm taking next Friday off work, so I can actually make it to the fun fly for once.

I hope my descriptions make sense.

Does anyone have any further advice about cartwheels?

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#15 lylenc

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

I've been working on these as well the last several outings. It helped me to learn the ladder horizontally and concentrating on pivot turns without any sliding. Also practicing pivot turns in all areas of the window helps. Adding the pedal motion for sliding was fairly simple after that. However, mine is a long ways from being uniform and consistent, especially near the edges of the window and turning up the reverse wing. This week I've been trying to do the Polo thing and make a huge circular rotation in the window while spinning. So far I've done squares, ovals, and a few accidental circles while spinning. It's a long ways from being uniform or pretty, but it's fun. Winds have been ballistic 25 -35 most of the week so vented Rev 2 has been the weapon of choice.
"Just One More"
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#16 HedgeWarden

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 01:53 PM

I've been working on cartwheel landings for a while now. Occasionally I do not crash. :wacko:

When flying in the vertical orientation (moving horizontally, kite facing left or right), I usually have both hands positioned with the top of the handle pointing the in the same direction as the kite. Flying in horizontal orientation, upright or inverted, I hold the handles with tops pointing up, usually in the "/ \" configuration (tops closer together).

I can bicycle with the handles both upright "| |", but trying to do the cartwheel, I end up trying to transition the lower handles from pointing in the direction of travel "/ /" to the "/ \" configuration as I roll into the inverted, and try to roll over into reverse flight "\ \" then upright to land "| |". This seems to be the point I usually lose it.

So, my question is: Should I always keep my handles in the "/ \" or "| |" pattern instead of the "/ /" or "\ \" pattern? Do I have a bad habit or a very bad habit? Posted Image Or will more practice allow me to make a more controlled transition in handle orientation?
-Howard
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#17 Watty

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 03:50 PM

I've been working on cartwheel landings for a while now. Occasionally I do not crash. :wacko:

When flying in the vertical orientation (moving horizontally, kite facing left or right), I usually have both hands positioned with the top of the handle pointing the in the same direction as the kite. Flying in horizontal orientation, upright or inverted, I hold the handles with tops pointing up, usually in the "/ \" configuration (tops closer together).

I can bicycle with the handles both upright "| |", but trying to do the cartwheel, I end up trying to transition the lower handles from pointing in the direction of travel "/ /" to the "/ \" configuration as I roll into the inverted, and try to roll over into reverse flight "\ \" then upright to land "| |". This seems to be the point I usually lose it.

So, my question is: Should I always keep my handles in the "/ \" or "| |" pattern instead of the "/ /" or "\ \" pattern? Do I have a bad habit or a very bad habit? Posted Image Or will more practice allow me to make a more controlled transition in handle orientation?


When doing a traveling bicycle rotation, my hands are positioned in an A frame (/ \). I think that hand and body position is something that tends to be developed over time. Looking back at pictures of myself flying a few years ago, my body position has become much more relaxed holding that A frame.

Spence "Watty" Watson

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#18 Watty

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 03:50 PM

I've been working on cartwheel landings for a while now. Occasionally I do not crash. :wacko:

When flying in the vertical orientation (moving horizontally, kite facing left or right), I usually have both hands positioned with the top of the handle pointing the in the same direction as the kite. Flying in horizontal orientation, upright or inverted, I hold the handles with tops pointing up, usually in the "/ \" configuration (tops closer together).

I can bicycle with the handles both upright "| |", but trying to do the cartwheel, I end up trying to transition the lower handles from pointing in the direction of travel "/ /" to the "/ \" configuration as I roll into the inverted, and try to roll over into reverse flight "\ \" then upright to land "| |". This seems to be the point I usually lose it.

So, my question is: Should I always keep my handles in the "/ \" or "| |" pattern instead of the "/ /" or "\ \" pattern? Do I have a bad habit or a very bad habit? Posted Image Or will more practice allow me to make a more controlled transition in handle orientation?


When doing a traveling bicycle rotation, my hands are positioned in an A frame (/ \). I think that hand and body position is something that tends to be developed over time. Looking back at pictures of myself flying a few years ago, my body position has become much more relaxed holding that A frame.

Spence "Watty" Watson

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

 


#19 Love2fly

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 06:19 PM

Hi Guys....

Like Watty mentioned, hand position is important. SkyPuppet, it sounds like you have a lot of extra hand movement going on. Your hands should not be changing "sides" as the kite rotates. Are your hands turning upside down as the kite does? If you're moving them THAT much, that might be one of your problems.

Practice your clock turns without moving across the window and without changing altitude. Practice doing them real slow and controlled, then try it even slower! Also, do it to the right and then undo it to the left; always controlled. When you have that "nailed", try to get some movement going; do one turn and go forward some and then do the next quarter turn and move some and so on. Now that you're at the right edge of the window, go back to the other side of the window doing the same steps (but, of course, moving to the left). Breaking it down and repeating it over and over will help you develop the muscle memory. Once you have it down in the "smaller parts" try putting it together. It will take time to develop the entire skill, but it will happen!!!

Have fun!
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#20 bartman

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:40 PM

I just happen to have started playing with these a bit in the last couple of weeks too. It seems very odd that at times I have something that looks very close to what it should look like, but I haven't quite figured out what it is I did to get it there!

I haven't seen one since WSIKF last year and have seen no videos of any so just sorta working from memory. Like others are saying, it will come, just need to break it down into steps.

Never enough time to practice these things!

Bart




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